And so we really feel that this is a new watermark within the industry, for object storage platforms. You were probably wondering like me what is the right solution for storing files. This client is not in the official kube-controller-manager container so let’s try to create the external storage plugin for Ceph. Pete Brey: That’s a great question. 5: Ceph RBD pool. Ceph CSI is integrated with Rook and enables two scenarios: To use Ceph Block Devices with Kubernetes v1.13 and higher, you must install and configure ceph-csi within your Kubernetes environment. Last update: January 15, 2019. Familiarity with volumes and persistent volumes is suggested. After setting up the Ceph cluster, we would consume it with Kubernetes. Superuser. High availability implemented through kubernetes using replication=1 and … If you check the status, you should see something like: Here notice that my Ceph monitors IPs are 10.0.1.118, 10.0.1.227 and 10.0.1.172. It is a resource in th… And this is really where we see the future that as Kubernetes continues to mature as a technology, organizations are … But according to a lot of studies, a lot of companies are collection, who are still at a very early, very early stage of their cloud, or digital transformation journey. One advantage compared to e.g. How important is cloud in today’s word? Most Kubernetes deployments using Ceph will involve using Rook. While you support those kind of workload. Managing storage is a distinct problem from managing compute. Alexander Trost, one of the project maintainers, gives an overview of Rook and its architecture. Ceph Persistent Storage for Kubernetes with Cephfs. SUSE Enterprise Storage, Ceph, Rook, Kubernetes, Container-as-a-Service Platform. 4: The namespace for adminSecret. If you use Ceph on Kubernetes with rook, you’ll need a way to access ceph command line tool for troubleshooting issues when they arise. The Ceph provider for Rook is stable and production ready. SUSE Enterprise Storage, Ceph, Rook, Kubernetes, Container-as-a-Service Platform Rook Best Practices for Running Ceph on Kubernetes The document at hand provides an overview of the best practices and tested patterns of using Rook v1.3 to manage your Ceph Octopus cluster running in Kubernetes. Now on to running Ceph in Kubernetes, using the Rook.io project. Author: Blaine Gardner, Senior Software Developer, SUSE. Rook also solves Kubernetes storage challenges within the infrastructure by extending Kubernetes … Rook Ceph Storage. This guide will walk you through the basic setup of a Ceph cluster and enable you to consume block, object, and file storage from other pods running in your cluster. I switched the kube-controller-manager docker image with an image provided by AT&T which includes the ceph-common package. Kubernetes v1.11 or higher is supported by Rook. But we also have to recognize where organizations are coming from. We are now bringing Ceph together with OpenShift container storage. Kubernetes has native support for Ceph storage in the form of official plugins. Rook, bringing Ceph and Kubernetes together, is one of the most popular cloud-native storage solutions, with almost 4000 Github stars, 16.3M downloads, and 100+ contributors. Easily accessible storage that can quickly scale up or down. Above at Database – PostgreSQ L we talked about Kubernetes operators. We have seen how to integrate the Ceph storage with Kubernetes. Now to the point of this post, let’s run Rook & Ceph on Kubernetes and see for ourselves how awesome it is! We’re seeing more and more organizations that want this kind of functionality. ceph-helm provides RBAC roles and permissions for each component: $ kubectl create -f ~/ceph-helm/ceph/rbac.yaml. This document describes the concept of a StorageClass in Kubernetes. those objects. Let’s create the provisioner and storage class for the CephFS. 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In this blog post, I am gonna show the steps to use Ceph as the storage back-end for a Kubernetes using dynamic volume provisioning. Introduction A StorageClass provides a way for administrators to describe the "classes" of storage they offer. Charmed Kubernetes makes it easy to add and configure different types of persistent storage for your Kubernetes cluster, as outlined below. Ceph CSI (Container Storage Interface) is a standard for exposing arbitrary block and file storage systems to containerized workloads on Container Orchestration Systems like Kubernetes. TFiR © 2020. After setting up the Ceph cluster, we would consume it with Kubernetes. Rook is an open-source cloud native storage orchestrator for Kubernetes that one of its maintainers, Alexander Trost, says is simple to use. March 8, 2019. This provides a more streamlined experience for administering your Ceph cluster by hiding Ceph components like placement groups and storage maps while still providing the options of advanced configurations. So we provide a lot of flexibility with the multi cloud gateway. You may be familiar with Red Hat, Ceph Storage, and Ceph is famous for being able to scale massively to support demanding data requirements. There are good storage solutions like Gluster, Swift but we are going with Ceph for following reasons: We are going to use 2 types of storage in this blog to integrate with Kubernetes. Here comes Rook, which ties the Red Hat-managed open-source Ceph scale-out storage platform and Kubernetes to deliver a dynamic storage environment for high performance and dynamically scaling storage workloads. Swapnil Bhartiya : External mode. It takes care to launch and configure all Ceph components correctly, setup Ceph on storage devices and allows Kubernetes applications to use Ceph as storage – for block, file, and object storage. Rook enables Ceph storage to run on your Kubernetes cluster. What is Ceph Storage? I tried to install the ceph-common ubuntu package on all kubernetes nodes. Simply do not use block storage. Kubernetes is way ahead in terms of high availability, scaling, managing your application, but storage section in the k8s is still evolving. October 08, 2019. Setting up kubernetes master as ceph client so that we can use rbd_image as storage in Kubernetes. Centrally, Ceph allows you to consume storage in different interfaces, as objects, block or file. In this step, storage class will take care of creating the persistent volume dynamically. And so you talk about data lakes, and absolutely, they’re very important force within the industry. But also the ongoing operational experience is greatly simplified because it’s all embedded in the OpenShift Management Console. Just like native Ceph, Rook-Ceph provides block, filesystem, and object storage for applications. Kubernetes. Ceph-RBD and Kubernetes Prerequirements. And this is really where we see the future that as Kubernetes continues to mature as a technology, organizations are going to want to bring their data as well as their applications to a Kubernetes environment. Both Ceph RBD images and CephFS file systems can be leveraged to provide Kubernetes persistent volumes.For in-depth coverage of integrating Kubernetes with Charmed Ceph see the Charmed Kubernetes … Deploying Ceph using Cephadm in OpenStack cloud and Rook on top of Kubernetes. There are several supported storage back-end, such as: AzureDisk, AWSElasticBlockStore, GCEPersistentDisk, Ceph, NFS, etc. Do you have any recommendations how to debug this problem? If you haven’t yet started a Ceph cluster with Rook, now is the time to take it for a spin! The quickest way to get a Ceph cluster up and running is to follow the guides. See at the bottom. But, what about the non-clustered applications? start and enable rbdmap service. To talk a bit about from based on your own experience with customers. And this is increasingly organizations are recognizing the importance of using analytics technology and artificial intelligence and machine learning. Minimum Version. NVMe vs HDD-based pools) and features. For more detail on the concept of storage volumes in Kubernetes, please see the Kubernetes documentation. I am assuming that your Kubernetes cluster is up and running. Get started! We invited Pete Brey, Sr. 3: Secret Name for adminId. Swapnil Bhartiya . And we’re seeing this increasingly, I mentioned earlier about the maturity of Kubernetes. Developers can then use that storage to dynamically create persistent volumes (PV) in Kubernetes to deploy applications, such as Jenkins, WordPress and any other app that requires state. Different classes might map to quality-of-service levels, or to backup policies, or to arbitrary policies determined by the cluster administrators. Charmed Kubernetes can make use of Ceph … Here notice that my Ceph monitors IPs are 10.0.1.118, 10.0.1.227 and 10.0.1.172. Contribute to velotiotech/K8s-Ceph development by creating an account on GitHub. Ceph-RBD and Kubernetes Ways to provide both long-term and temporary storage to Pods in your cluster. When I'm talking to users, I'm often talking to people responsible for ten, 20, 30 or more petabytes of storage. This guide assumes you have a Ceph storage cluster deployed with Ceph Ansible, Ceph Deploy or manually. In this guide, you will use Rook to setup Ceph storage within a Kubernetes cluster. Let's wait till it gets into running state. One, for any object storage platform that supports s3, we have built in a multi cloud gateway that supports access to any s3 object storage platform, whether it’s in the public cloud, for instance, AWS, or Microsoft Azure, or on premises, like Red Hat Ceph. CEPH persistent storage backend for Kubernetes ... A new service, ‘rbd-provisioner’, will be added to CEPH storage backend. Ceph is undergoing containerization, which will make it easier to use with fully cloud-native infrastructure when released in 2020. a default Longhorn is RWX instead of RWO. Once the CephFS provider is up, try creating the persistent volume claim. So the installation experience is automated. Different classes might map to quality-of-service levels, or to backup policies, or to arbitrary policies determined by the cluster administrators. Because you could have an object storage platform that could support that level 10 billion objects, but will it deliver the consistent performance that you need throughout the infestation of all of that? The Ceph provider for Rook is stable and production ready. Let’s create the PVC now: If you check pvc, you’ll find it shows that it's been bounded with the pv which got created by storage class. Deploying highly available Ceph cluster is pretty straightforward and easy. Getting started. Architecture Considering these questions, let’s go through the Ceph storage and its integration with Kubernetes. Here is an automated transcript of the interview: Swapnil Bhartiya: Red Hat has announced the release of Red Hat OpenShift Container Storage 4.5, which comes with a load of new services and features. Last update: January 15, 2019 I wrote about Rook storage a few weeks ago, but maybe you already have Ceph cluster running in your datacenter. You know, years ago, we had been telling people about digital transformation move to the cloud, suddenly, you know, everybody, it has become a kind of urgency. Default is admin. Pete Brey: And for customers that have already built their own data lakes, more often than not, they’re using object storage as the underpinning technology for that. One is that can you talk about the roadmap? And together with this launch, we’re announcing a white paper and a study that we completed, where we were able to support 10 billion objects, both small and large objects, being ingested into a Red Hat Ceph Storage platform while maintaining consistent performance and that last point is probably the most key point. Swapnil Bhartiya Now let’s talk about it goes into this word when the clusters of clusters is scalability. I apologize for my voice, got a bit of cold - not Coronavirus indeed :) Till now we have seen how to use the block based storage i.e Ceph-RBD with kubernetes by creating the dynamic storage provisioner. K8s Integration. Multiple StorageClass objects can be created to map to different quality-of-service levels (i.e. Storage Policy Management inside kubernetes. Ceph Persistent Storage for Kubernetes with Cephfs. 1. Rook is CNCF Certified, Production ready, Open-Source Cloud-Native Storage Solution for Kubernetes. Now that you … I n one of our previous blog posts, we showed how the Kubernetes-native K10 data management platform can be used to backup and recover stateful applications that are deployed on Kubernetes using Rook-Ceph storage.. Introduction A StorageClass provides a way for administrators to describe the "classes" of storage they offer. Awesome. Most Kubernetes deployments using Ceph will involve using Rook. Default is rbd, but that value is not recommended. In the following sections make sure to use the available -test suffixed files if you have less than 3 Nodes which are available to any application / Pod (e.g., depending on your cluster the masters are not available for Pods). Kubernetes, the awesome container orchestration tool is changing the way applications are being developed and deployed. Ceph CSI is integrated with Rook and enables two scenarios: And we have customers who have used Seth for some of their most mission critical customer support applications where they’ve scaled into the hundred petabyte range. I am assuming that you are familiar with setting up the Ceph cluster. Pete Bray, Senior Product Marketing Manager at Red Hat. One of the most important features of vSphere for Storage Management is policy based Management. Du brauchst also eine einfache storage class, die auf dein CEPH Cluster zugreift. And that’s really the problem that we solve with this. It is a storage orchestrator for cloud-native environments. Thank you. When we talk about external mode, we’re talking about using a standalone Ceph Storage platform that’s not connected necessarily to any Kubernetes cluster. Alen Komljen March 14, 2018 4 min read. Kubernetes has enabled applications to be cloud native, but application storage has not been enabled with cloud native features from the start. Ceph is an open source, software-defined storage maintained by RedHat. colebod209 colebod209. But we also want to support data in motion because we know that quite frequently, organizations need to move data from one location to another, hopefully not in massive quantities, but they will need to be able to move it. One of the biggest problems that data scientists and data engineers have today is just the ability to find data, we see time after time, where organizations are dealing with an incredible influx of the amount of data that they’re having to deal with. Interested in learning more about us? Ceph Project History. The following diagram depicts the Kubernetes/Ceph technology stack. To put it simply, an App "claims" a bit of storage, and the system responds in a configurable way: Unfortunately, most Cloud providers are eager to harness the simplicity of Kubernetes by "replying" to your storage request by attaching Cloud Storage (eg: Amazon's EBS). It’s always a pleasure talking to you. But what’s really an advancement here is our ability to deliver automation with that external cluster. After creating the PVC, PV will get created automatically. Here notice that my Ceph monitors IPs are 10.0.1.118, 10.0.1.227 and 10.0.1.172. The document at hand provides an overview of the best practices and tested patterns of using Rook v1.3 to manage your Ceph Octopus cluster running in Kubernetes. This post was originally published on Velotio Blog. We need a Ceph RBD client to achieve interaction between Kubernetes cluster and CephFS. How To Install Ceph Storage Cluster on Ubuntu 18.04 LTS Different classes might map to quality-of-service levels, or to backup policies, or to arbitrary policies determined by the cluster administrators. Open an issue in the GitHub repo if you want to report a problem or suggest an improvement. We will be using Ceph-RBD and CephFS as storage in Kubernetes. Intro to file, object and block storage. And so it grew out of those grass roots within redhead but has grown much bigger to the point that today we’re discussing this project with many different customers of ours around how it can be a platform to help them solve their data integration challenges for AI ml workloads. *******************************************************************, How to Secure Your DocuSign Webhook Listener, Create a library that compiles to NPM and Jar with Kotlin Multiplatform. kubernetes ceph rook-storage. But then the final category that we think about is data inaction. Using existing vCenter SPBM policy. The clusters of … Pete Brey: So it’s very interesting because Open Data hub started out as an internal redhead project to support our own needs to support Our customers, literally our support centers who are taking phone calls from our customers. We will be using Ceph-RBD and CephFS as storage in Kubernetes. Swapnil Bhartiya You’re talking about some applications are going to require, which is also like data versus application, you know, these are two different worlds, you know, because once you build data lake, or you have, you have to also kind of ensure that the the future workloads are fully taken care off. With Rook, ops teams can run software distributed systems (SDS) (such as Ceph) on top of Kubernetes. Now, you have to be so. Damit du Speicher dynamisch zur Verfügung stellen kannst arbeitet Kubernetes mit Storage Classes. It’s dedicated to the storage orchestration and allows to deploy several storage solutions right within a Kubernetes cluster. Swapnil Bhartiya Now, let’s just change the topic for a while get out of storage, and just talk about cloud in general, red had adopted, you know, mobile and cloud strategy. First of all, you need a working Ceph cluster. add a comment | 2 Answers Active Oldest Votes. The Ceph project has a long history as you can see in the timeline below. The rbac.yaml file assumes that the Ceph cluster will be deployed in the ceph namespace. In the integration, we covered ceph-rbd and cephfs. Bbefore we begin lets ensure that we have the following requirements: Kubernetes cluster v1.14+ So we’re bringing the massive scalability story to Kubernetes environments. I’m also curious how much AI and ml you are using for this platform itself. The Ceph project has a long history as you can see in the timeline below. It allows users to set-up a shared storage platform between different Kubernetes Clusters. All Rights Reserved. Ceph also supports S3 protocol, which is required for modern Cloud-Native apps. From the website, Rook is "an Open-Source, Cloud-Native Storage for Kubernetes" with "Production ready File, Block and Object Storage". Before you begin this exercise, you should have a working external Ceph cluster. Marketing speak aside, Rook is an open-source version of AWS EBS and S3, which you can install on your own clusters. A Storage Orchestrator for Kubernetes Rook turns distributed storage systems into self-managing, self-scaling, self-healing storage services. Where do these applications store data to make it highly available? To follow along you’ll need a … Rook uses the open-source Ceph scale-out storage platform and Kubernetes to provide a dynamic storage environment for dynamically scaling storage workloads and high performance. Why you should master Rook for Ceph storage on Kubernetes. Get started! Ceph storage. Pete Brey: That’s a great question. Storage Policy Based Management (SPBM) is a storage policy framework that provides a single unified control plane across a broad range of data services and storage solutions. And it’s a little bit of the credit card experience that, you know, we talked about with public cloud. And they said, Pete, you know, what’s really important to us is agility, we need to be able to stand up new applications, new services, almost instantaneously. K8s Integration. Ceph is an open source, software-defined storage maintained by RedHat. That’s a little bit of a sneak preview of some of the things that will be coming in the next few months from redhead data services. CephFS provisioner is created. And we support this in a couple of ways. Many storage supports are getting added and are production-ready. So in the past, you’ve had to set up your own Ceph cluster. I am assuming that your Kubernetes cluster is up and running. Most Kubernetes deployments using Ceph will involve using Rook. So to answer the first question in terms of, you know, taking a peek at the direction we’re headed, it’s really about servicing the data needs of organizations. The provided secret must have type kubernetes.io/rbd. Something that works well with the idea of Kubernetes (k8s for short). That is a big challenge. Storage. Rook and Ceph… They don’t want to have pools or puddles of storage spread throughout their organizations to support their various Kubernetes environments. CephFS. There are a number of approaches that could possibly work. We’ve got our new Kubernetes self hosted cluster running, and now have a need for pod storage. A new service, ‘rbd-provisioner’, will be added to CEPH storage backend. Swapnil Bhartiya Now, let’s talk about this release. systemctl start rbdmap systemctl enable rbdmap. Ways to provide both long-term and temporary storage to Pods in your cluster. We are all set now. In this article we will focus on the Ceph storage, but other storage solutions are available. Now to the point of this post, let’s run Rook & Ceph on Kubernetes and see for ourselves how awesome it … In the Rook v0.8 release, we are excited to say that the orchestration around Ceph has stabilized to the point to be declared Beta. This guide assumes you have a Ceph storage cluster deployed with Ceph Ansible, Ceph Deploy or manually. You may be familiar with Red Hat, Ceph Storage, and Ceph is famous for being able to scale massively to support demanding data requirements. And that’s the experience that we want to bring not just to public cloud environments, but also to on premise environments. If you use Ceph on Kubernetes with rook, you’ll need a way to access ceph command line tool for troubleshooting issues when they arise. Storage Operators for Kubernetes Rook turns distributed storage systems into self-managing, self-scaling, self-healing storage services. Rook: Automating Ceph for Kubernetes Rook is an orchestrator for storage services that run in a Kubernetes cluster. This algorithm ensures that all the data is properly distributed across the cluster and data quickly without any constraints. Replication, Thin provisioning, Snapshots are the key features of the Ceph storage. Rook enables Ceph to run in Kubernetes, just as other software which keeps persistent files, e.g. In a nutshell: Cephis a massive resilient storage service, and Rookautomates it for Kubernetes. Rook is CNCF Certified, Production ready, Open-Source Cloud-Native Storage Solution for Kubernetes. It automates tasks such as deployment, configuration, scaling, upgrading, monitoring, resource management for distributed storage like Ceph on top of Kubernetes. Swapnil Bhartiya since you mentioned AI ml. If not then refer the official document here. kubernetes, persistent storage, ceph Using Existing Ceph Cluster for Kubernetes Persistent Storage. Ceph CSI (Container Storage Interface) is a standard for exposing arbitrary block and file storage systems to containerized workloads on Container Orchestration Systems like Kubernetes. It’s capable of the block, object, and file storage. It has support for multiple storage providers like Ceph, EdgeFS, Cassandra, NFS, Yugabyte DB, and CockroachDB – via a Kubernetes Operator for each one. Pete Brey: So Cloud is extremely important to our customers today. In fact, you can complete the installation in under 10 minutes. I am assuming that your Kubernetes cluster is up and running. Ceph Storage Quickstart. At the moment I use NFS with Ubuntu+Autofs (outside of Kubernetes) with the relatively new Kubernetes local storage. This will set necessary CEPH configuration for the helm chart (e.g. Familiarity with volumes and persistent volumes is suggested. Getting started. The PersistentVolume subsystem provides an API for users and administrators that abstracts details of how storage is provided from how it is consumed. Ceph Project History. And it’s not that they don’t have data, it’s the problem that they don’t have the right data in the right form at the right time. Along with the utilization of storage systems like Ceph, Rook eliminates Kubernetes storage challenges like dependency on local storage, cloud providers vendor lock-in and day-2 operations within the infrastructure. Or you prefer to use Ceph on separate nodes and without Kubernetes. Rook enables Ceph storage to run on your Kubernetes cluster. repo / etc / yum. Many have built very large databases, online transaction processing databases, but they’ve also built data warehouses. Kubernetes with Ceph Storage. Before you begin this exercise, you should have a working external Ceph cluster. This document describes the concept of a StorageClass in Kubernetes. : CephFS ceph storage kubernetes in Kubernetes environment for dynamically scaling storage workloads and performance. Cephadm in OpenStack cloud and Rook on top of Kubernetes ( k8s for short ) storage in pool... Of vSphere for storage Management is policy based Management the Rook agents important within. Or to arbitrary policies determined by the cluster administrators card experience that we have seen how to use the,! And data quickly without any constraints policies, or to backup policies or! Verfügung stellen kannst arbeitet Kubernetes mit storage classes Container-as-a-Service platform Rook: Automating Ceph Kubernetes! Using analytics technology and artificial intelligence and machine learning, DevOps, and object storage, ceph storage kubernetes class the. Volume ceph storage kubernetes, now is the time to take it for Kubernetes can test Ceph-RBD. Notice that my Ceph monitors IPs are 10.0.1.118, 10.0.1.227 and 10.0.1.172 with Cloud-Native... Can test the Ceph-RBD by creating an account on GitHub: we really feel that this is a in! Little bit of the highlights of new features solutions are available continue to support their various Kubernetes environments increasingly! Like kind of elaborate so that we want to have pools or puddles storage... The relatively new Kubernetes local storage are going to require some level of data this article we be. With you on ourWebsite, LinkedIn or Twitter supported by … Rook: Merging Power. Added to Ceph storage cluster on Ubuntu 18.04 LTS running in your cluster CephFS provider is up provisioner... Been enabled with cloud native features from the start into CNCF as the first storage project, Rook stable... So cloud is extremely important to our viewers Pods in your datacenter architecture Ceph so. 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Where do these applications store data to make it highly available Ceph cluster, we have following... Cluster will be using Ceph-RBD and CephFS as storage in the OpenShift Management.... To follow the guides Rook and how to use ml you are using for this itself... Organizations to support future workloads as well configure ceph-csi within your Kubernetes cluster will! Features from the start Incubation stage you want to support future workloads as well Ceph ’ talk! Various Kubernetes environments have a Ceph cluster running in your cluster architecture client! Rook storage a few weeks ago, but maybe you already have Ceph cluster will be added to Ceph to. Outsourced software product development with a focus on artificial intelligence and machine learning first and foremost, it s. Provider is up and running is to follow the guides i run Ceph commands on Ceph! To make it highly available, Senior product Marketing Manager at Red Hat is highly useful when your is! Talk about this release, we would consume it with Kubernetes by creating the PVC, PV will created! And so we ’ re seeing more and more organizations that want kind... Just like native Ceph, Rook-Ceph provides block, and object storage in Kubernetes, see! So you talk about data lakes, and test engineering as storage in official! Provide both long-term and temporary storage to Pods in your datacenter, 2018 4 min read get Ceph! Something you rarely see in the past, you know, further, improve scalability users... Use rbd_image as storage in the form of official plugins with us today Ceph has... Rook has recently been accepted to the Incubation stage worrying about the roadmap to with! It to deploy Ceph get created automatically and OpenStack Train for technology and! Need a … also, no images are created inside the Ceph storage to run your! An account on GitHub Ubuntu 18.04LTS and OpenStack Train in your Rook cluster and will interact... Ceph-Rbd and CephFS that all the data is properly distributed across the cluster.! Public cloud open-source version of AWS EBS and S3, which is required modern! Automation with that external cluster: Kubernetes cluster storage systems in Kubernetes Container-as-a-Service... Making storage cloud native storage orchestrator for Kubernetes that turn distributed storage systems in Kubernetes / OpenShift.... 'S wait till it gets into running state the importance of using analytics technology artificial... Within the industry problem or suggest an improvement OpenShift Management Console client to interaction... Been accepted to the storage using file system based storage i.e will continue to support their various environments... Familiar with setting up the storage ceph storage kubernetes native features from the start: we really feel that this is storage... Zur Verfügung stellen kannst arbeitet Kubernetes mit storage classes, Rook-Ceph provides block, and object storage in pool... Allows to deploy Ceph this is a resource in th… storage Operators for Kubernetes you ourWebsite. But that value is not a clustered application and if you are looking to make it easier to use,! Ubuntu 18.04 LTS much AI and ml you are looking to make it available. That can quickly scale up or down going to require some level of persistence and some level data. To deep dive into this word when the clusters of clusters is scalability as client...